2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

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2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

Raymond323
its DIS how can you check timing, i always put na, for the star program what u gona doo, put 15 or na
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

Accused
If it can't be checked put NA.

If you checked it and verified it was correct, put 15.

But don't put 15 if you never checked it at all.

Your entries determine what BAR thinks the right answer is.
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

Raymond323
so in other words the book and under hood label are wrong in this case,wtfffff this is a damm joke,and they wana blame us,they wrote the book the laws all wrongg
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

Accused
That's not what I am saying at all.

Is there a procedure in the book for checking the timing or does the procedure say that it is non-adjustable.  Some procedures are provided even though it is non adjustable.  This is usually for assembly or only performed to verify a fault of some sort.

When a label says timing adjustment is not needed.  That does not mean it is necessarily non adjustable.  A good example of this is Honda Civics with a slotted distributor mount.  The label says timing adjustment not needed but every book gives a spec and a procedure.  Not needed should be thought of like "washing my shirt is not needed, I did it yesterday".  It is meant to discourage people from adjusting the timing but it is not a message that it is impossible.  In other cases though, the label says the same thing but the distributor is not slotted and is not adjustable and the book will say so.

If you want to use the early Nissan V6's as an example though, it's a coil on plug arrangement but the listed procedure involves removing the #1 coil and attaching a plug wire from the coil to the plug.  I have argued in the past that this is not "conventional timing" but BAR removed that language from the manual so that argument won't work.

But really, it's up to us now.  If enough people say it's not adjustable - the state treats it like its not adjustable.  Except that we have no way of knowing this when we test it.  We just find out monthly when our short term numbers are put out. So I would just follow the repair info you have.  

Fun stuff.  
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

I'm STAR, Ur Not
In reply to this post by Raymond323
Is there a procedure for adjusting it? If the answer is yes, then check it and put the results in. If the answer in no, then put in N/A. Some DIS systems have adjustable timing, usually by turning the cam sensor.

All the info on how to adjust it is supposed to be in the repair info your station is required to have. I suggest you make sure you have all the info and start using it.

You see, STAR is working. This thread shows how STAR is making you a better tech.


Miniature Weiner
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

I'm STAR, Ur Not
In reply to this post by Accused
If a Honda label says not adjustable, doesn't it take precedence over the repair manual? Wouldn't we not check those? What if the majority of techs check it in fear of loosing STAR status? If someone got dinged for it could they fight it with a copy of the label?

These are all things we need to figure out and maybe have BAR clarify.


Miniature Weiner
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

barrym95838
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Accused
I recently was issued a stern warning by a PR regarding a 2001 Maxima, by some strange coincidence.  I messed it up, but was not issued a formal citation.

I failed it for a MIL in August.

It came back a few months later for an after-repairs test, and I failed it for base timing.

The customer took it to Nissan, they charged him $120 to diagnose it, and came back with "no problem found".

The customer came back for a third time, and after some head-scratching, I realized that AllData had mislead me.  They provide two methods for checking base timing, one by grabbing a temporarily-installed plug wire, and one by grabbing a primary current loop pigtail in the engine harness near the front cover.  They allege that these procedures are equivalent, but THEY ARE NOT.  As I discovered, the primary pigtail method can provide a false reading.

The PR asked me why I didn't just say N/A for the second test.  I told him that I have been trying to be more diligent to protect my short-term measures, and therefore went the extra mile to check it, to avoid a possible deviation.  Bad idea, at least in this particular instance.

He told me that I was incorrect, since the timing is not adjustable, only repairable, since a defect in the cam timing, PCM, CKP, or CMP are the only things that can cause it to be off.  I had no choice but to agree.

His parting comment was, "If you can grab something and turn it, it's adjustable, unless the underhood label supercedes it by stating 'NOT ADJUSTABLE'.  If you can't grab something and turn it, it's not, and must be entered as N/A, regardless of its ability to be checked.  'NO ADJUSTMENT NEEDED' is not a sufficient excuse to enter N/A, and must be checked if it is possible to adjust it."

Therefore, a 1990 COP 300ZX is adjustable, and must be checked, because it has an adjustable cam sensor.

A 2001 Maxima is NOT adjustable, and must be entered as N/A.

Here's where I really screwed up, though.  I performed the second test without seeing the first, but the PR showed it to me, and I had correctly entered N/A on the first test.  My argument lost all validity, due to my own inconsistency, and I was fortunate that the PR recognized my sincerity, and excused me for being human.  Thanks, Rob!  I cost my shop $120, and I learned to be more careful next time.

Sincerely,

barrym95838
EA144107
“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

Just another shop owner
  As I understand it, IT don't matter, what did 90% of the other techs. put down.

Always the underhood label is god why are you looking at a book if you have a label? Label first, book if it had no label is what I was always taught.
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

Raymond323
underhood label saying 15 timing adj,how u gona check it ,also have same problem with the ford rangers dis,says timing adj 10 , its alll bull shitttt, just put NA and pray
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

Just another shop owner
 My understanding READ LABEL. Ford says 10 Degree BTC with spout disc.

 Read all of label. Mixture and timing set at factory no adjustable. Thus N\A.

 State undercover 93 Taurus. Bitch to read. A shop took them to court. One and only time I heard a shop won.
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

sandman
common guys,  dis are not adjustable.    my rule is, if you cant turn it, it is not adjustable.  plus what controls a direct ignition?   a module right? a computer. thats the rest of your case

     
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

barrym95838
Administrator
sandman wrote
common guys,  dis are not adjustable.
Please be careful, sandman.

I have given examples of DIS that ARE adjustable.  Certain Nissans and Acuras come to mind immediately, and I'm sure that there are a few more.  Please follow the guidelines above, given to me straight from a PR (who also told me that he has been a smog tech for 40 years), and you should be okay.

Just Another ... is correct that you will be screwed either way if a large majority of the other inspectors do it differently than you, but at least you have the power of correctness on your side, for whatever that's worth.

Sincerely,

barrym95838
EA144107

“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

sandman
explain to me how you adjust timing on a DIS ignition/. You could probably check the timing at idle, but how u gonna adjust it. maybe with a scanner and adjustable cam gears.   shed some light to this poor tech.  but  i dont think you need a book to know if its adjustable or not.


heres a car that is adjustable but yet pcm controlled.      96 civic.    you could adjust base timing by turning distributor.    but turn all the accesories "on" one  by one and watch the ignition timing change due to demand.   thats the pcm taking over adjusting iac valve to raise rpm thereby controlling ign timing.  

     most tech will put this is adjustable,  but still timing is pcm controlled.  hmmmm.   i dont know...
007
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

007
The underhood label should be the answer, but it is not. You can not soley relie on the underhood label and you can't soley relie on the books. You need experience and both label and books to make the right call. All 1992 and newer fords with labels say timing is not adjustable, but it is adjustable, the book says it is adjustable, you can turn the distributor and the timing will change. The BAR stance is if the label says non adjustable it is not adjustable, but if the label is missing you have to check it because the book says it is adjustable. Another example, mid 1990 chyslers, underhood label says timing is 12 degrees, you check it and timing is at 20 do you fail it? or do you use your experience and books that say disconnect the coolant temp sensor when checking? which now timing reads 12. Mazda mitas have a an adjustable camshaft sensor, nissans that barryman mentioned have adjustable cam sensors both without distributors but timing is adjustable. Early hondas underhood label says timing is 15, most books say 4 with distributor vacuum lines disconnected, who is right label or books? If you read the manufacture procedures clearly they say check timing with vacuum lines connected and timing should be 15. Only disconnect the vacuum lines when checking to see if the advance system is working correctly. Aftermarket books mis intrepid the procedure.
When in doubt call the manufacture for the procedure and document document document. In the area I live in, I have befriended most of the service managers of the dealerships and the owners and techs of at least 10 other shops, this gives you a good network to bounce these questions off of, because they will be the shops repairing the smogs I fail.
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

Accused
In reply to this post by I'm STAR, Ur Not
STAR BOY,

This rule never changed dumbass.  So STAR didn't change anything but awareness. They could have done the same thing with a simple group of bar blasts.
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

Accused
In reply to this post by I'm STAR, Ur Not
STAR BOY,

Not needed is not the same as NON ADJUSTABLE.  That is the problem.  Refer to the manual for procedure.
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

Accused
In reply to this post by sandman
Sandman,

I am more worried now than before.  BASE TIMING is what we inspect on ALL adjustable cars.  Computer control of timing is not relevant if the BASE TIMING is adjustable.  Look in your book.  Plenty of DIS vehicles - especially the further back you go - are adjustable by turning a cam sensor.  (mitsu, chrysler, nissan, mazda, etc.).
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

Accused
In reply to this post by 007
The label still supersedes the book when it CLEARLY states timing is NON-ADJUSTABLE.  The specific laguage is the important factor.  If the wording can be interpreted to mean anything other than NON-ADJUSTABLE, check the books.  this is where the honda labels come in. They don't say "nonadjustable", they say "not needed".  That can be interpreted differently.
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

FiendFX
In reply to this post by Raymond323
Nissan Maxima 95 and newer, timing is not adjustable. Says so in the ALLDATA and Mitchell on Demand.
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Re: 2001 NISSAN MAXIMA DIS, book and under hood label say timing 15

 Just another shop owner
 IT DOESN"T MATTER WHAT THE BOOK OR LABEL SAY'S It's 90% YES YES YES that's wrong but does any of this make sense to you?