CAN Failure Scenario

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CAN Failure Scenario

Reactor
F250 with CAN, Failed for MIL ON. Obviously didn't know what the codes were so (being a nice guy) connected the handheld and read 2 codes for Fuel Level Sensor Circuit. That's EVAP.
The guy knows he has that problem and says he will not spend $1K to fix it. He will try to clear it and retest. Since this is CAN no monitors will be checked, so even if this is a 2 drive cycle code he has a good chance to pass. But 2 years from now most likely the CAN monitors will be read and the truck will fail unless fixed.
How would you go about retesting it?
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

Accused
Good question.  Would it have done you any good to go ahead and fail it while the light was on?  Not if he then returned for a retest, right?

Sucks to know too much.
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

Citation Addict
In reply to this post by Reactor
The right way would be to fail it. The customer is being a cheapskate, you can get into serious trouble if that customer were to get stopped on road side testing.

Just saying...
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

Reactor
I already failed it for the MIL On (functional failure/manual entry). But he will be back for retest once he clears the codes without having the truck fixed. Since this is CAN it is not going to get scanned for codes or monitors.
I think i'll call BAR Engineering on Monday and ask what they think. Will see how much they are in touch with the real world scenarios.
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

kilativ
This post was updated on .
Why would you worry? Assume that the same customer failed somewhere else, than he chooses to retest it at your shop. I don't think you would refuse it, so, you will pass it, without even to know that code is there. Test it without any hesitations, it is customer's interest to fix it next time, because he got burned in first place.
Another thing, who knows what will happen in 2 years. Maybe car gets totaled, or we will not be in the business, or who knows what.
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

barrym95838
Administrator
kilativ wrote
Test it without any hesitations, it is customer's interest to fix it next time, because he got burned in first place.
Another thing, who knows what will happen in 2 years. Maybe car gets totaled, or we will not be in the business, or who knows what.
Hi kilativ,

What you're saying makes sense, and my shop has conducted its inspection business like that for eleven years.  The reward for this behavior is a FuPR that's in the toilet, and a bankruptcy looming.

When shady shit like this happens, STAR takes notice, and destroys the easiest targets, the shop and inspector.  The actual sequence of events leading up to that "shaky pass" are completely irrelevant to them, so they have decided to force us to either do their investigative job for them, or starve to death.

Take care,

barrym95838
EO144107
“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

kilativ
This post was updated on .
barrym95838 wrote
The reward for this behavior is a FuPR that's in the toilet.
That exactly what happened to me too. My station and technician FPR was 0.00. Now it went up to 0.11.
What i wanted to say, his future FPR score will not be reduced because of a single incident.
No way I am encouraging him to behave this way all the time, but in this particular case I would pass it. or somebody will pass it, not even knowing it has a problem.
 
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

Mike
In reply to this post by Reactor
I find that most customers dont know it will pass if he just resets the code. It sounds you gave him too much info if you told him what the codes mean. I just tell them it failed due to light on, if they ask questions I tell them they need diagnosing ,  and most important no free retest, this way they are likely to get it fixed correctly if they have to pay again. It works for me, most people give too much advise and on top of that a free retest, your asking for it.
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

Reactor
First of all he already knew he had a problem with that sensor. The reason i read and told him the codes is because on any OBD2 test report they will be shown. But not on CAN, so i usually try to read them and write on the report. Giving the customer same info as with standard OBD2 MIL failure.
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

barrym95838
Administrator
Reactor,

That's a kind and generous thing to do; howevever, it can back-fire on you if the customer doesn't give a rat's ass about anything other than his or her tags.

OBD2 readiness issues, as well as CAN testability deviations have been around long enough for most of the used car dealers in my neighberhood to take advantage of them, with absolutely no help from me other than a courtesy pre-screen rejection for an obvious fail.  In fact, one of them educated me last week over a '98 Volvo S70 that I tried to reject for five incompletes.  He told me that he had looked it up on the internet and found out that it's exempt from monitor readiness, and will pass the MIL functional as long as it's commanded off.  He was correct; it passed.  If it had been a regular customer, I wouldn't have even pre-screened.

Many of the denser customers still fail my initial tests for readiness issues, but some are quite a bit more savvy, and know how to juke the system using a shop like mine with a "test-as-received" policy.  In fact, I'm almost sure that this explains my steady up-trend in max-monitor short-term percentage in 2012 ... I'm receiving pre-screen rejects from neighboring facilities.

"Test-as-received" used to be the mantra of all responsible shops and technicians ... now it's a curse, that can FuPR you over if you don't protect yourself from predatory customers.  Trust me, the BAR isn't looking out for us in the slightest ... we're the "bad-guys".

barrym95838
EO144107



“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

kilativ
barrym95838 wrote
Trust me, the BAR isn't looking out for us in the slightest ... we're the "bad-guys".
 100% Very true
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

Skanga
In reply to this post by Reactor
Reactor wrote
F250 with CAN, Failed for MIL ON. Obviously didn't know what the codes were so (being a nice guy) connected the handheld and read 2 codes for Fuel Level Sensor Circuit. That's EVAP.
The guy knows he has that problem and says he will not spend $1K to fix it. He will try to clear it and retest. Since this is CAN no monitors will be checked, so even if this is a 2 drive cycle code he has a good chance to pass. But 2 years from now most likely the CAN monitors will be read and the truck will fail unless fixed.
How would you go about retesting it?
Unless you're 100% sure it's not an undercover car, it's an easy answer; just let it pass. Don't try to do the bureau's job of dotting every I and crossing every T. No one is going to pay you extra dollars or points for being a smog Nazi, and you will keep a customer happy. The chances of that truck being checked between now and its next inspection are slim to none. These are the scenarios the monkeys running this program weren't intelligent enough to foresee, so don't try to do a job you're not being paid for. They say don't check CAN, don't check it.

Even if you do everything by the book, and to the bureau's standards, that light can still flicker on seconds after leaving your shop and no one can do a God damned thing about it, so don't believe you have any control over it, no matter if you think you did the right thing.
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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

kfworry
In reply to this post by barrym95838
Yes indeed, we are the "bad guys" in the minds of the BAR.
I see Volvo's listed as OBD "not tested" in the Star Score criteria, when they are
exempt from readiness according to the Appendix the BAR publishes. You would think someone would challenge the BAR on that.

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Re: CAN Failure Scenario

kilativ
kfworry wrote
I see Volvo's listed as OBD "not tested" in the Star Score criteria, when they are
exempt from readiness according to the Appendix the BAR publishes. You would think someone would challenge the BAR on that.
Volvo cars are NOT exempt from OBDII testing. According to Appendix J pp. 4 Table 1a, some models from 96-98 are difficult to set monitors to complete, so EIS will automatically ignore them, but still will check for MIL status and DTC's. We need to complete inspection as prompted by the EIS, but not bypassing OBD functional test.