Permanent DTCS

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
28 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Permanent DTCS

My Name is Nobody
Applying the BAR new 30/500 rule, possible in March 2018.

Permanent_DTCS.pdf
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

SoCalSmogGuy
My Name is Nobody wrote
Applying the BAR new 30/500 rule, possible in March 2018.

Permanent_DTCS.pdf
What is this non-sense?? 30 warm up cycles and at least 500 miles?? Say goodbye to every old car on the road.
Work Smarter AND Harder
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

barrym95838
Administrator
Mode $0A isn't available on many of the cars I deal with, including all but one of those owned by me and my family.

barrym95838
EO/EI/LA/BA144107
“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

BasicTech678
took long enough to do something about pending codes and hard hard faults, like i tell people about running monitors. you only need to do it once, it only happened because

A) your vehicle was properly repaired and is verifying the repair was dont correctly
B) your battery died, disconnected or replaced with a new one.
         ( you can tell if its been replaced most of the  time or not )
C) your youtube/ backyard/ mechanic friend cleared it with a scan tool and told you to drive it 50 miles before smogging it. ( you might need a new mechanic)

A is the customers i enjoy helping
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

StarTech
In reply to this post by My Name is Nobody
Cool. Expect your pass rate\star score to decline once implemented.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

Lose weight
In reply to this post by BasicTech678
BasicTech678 wrote
took long enough to do something about pending codes and hard hard faults, like i tell people about running monitors. you only need to do it once, it only happened because

A) your vehicle was properly repaired and is verifying the repair was dont correctly
B) your battery died, disconnected or replaced with a new one.
         ( you can tell if its been replaced most of the  time or not )
C) your youtube/ backyard/ mechanic friend cleared it with a scan tool and told you to drive it 50 miles before smogging it. ( you might need a new mechanic)

A is the customers i enjoy helping
Youtube has some helpful vids about the drive cycle for catalyst monitor on stubborn Toyotas.
Make America Healthy Again, Stop overeating phatties!
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

barrym95838
Administrator
Lose weight wrote
Youtube has some helpful vids about the drive cycle for catalyst monitor on stubborn Toyotas.
How about a reluctant EGR monitor on a 2004 Civic?  Dang thing ran and passed everything else hundreds of miles ago, but I can't seem to get the enabling criteria right for the EGR ... it's opening and flowing as far as I can tell in my live data ...

barrym95838
EO/EI/LA/BA144107
“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

Johnnybeme
In reply to this post by My Name is Nobody
I doubt this pertains to older OBD2 vehicles cause they do not transmit these data.

JM
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

scanner
In reply to this post by barrym95838
barrym95838 wrote
How about a reluctant EGR monitor on a 2004 Civic?  Dang thing ran and passed everything else hundreds of miles ago, but I can't seem to get the enabling criteria right for the EGR ... it's opening and flowing as far as I can tell in my live data ...
How about trying this on the dyno unloaded a few times.  


Why make it simple, when it will work equally as well complicated.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

barrym95838
Administrator
Thanks, scanner.  I've been doing something similar, but not exactly the same.  

I'm letting it warm up at idle, then setting my dyno to 2.5 HP and running it up to 60 MPH for at least ten seconds before letting it coast down below 20 MPH with no brake.  I wait about a minute, then rinse and repeat several times.  While I'm accelerating to 60 MPH, my EGR position is going from 1.1V at idle to about 1.6 +/- 0.1V at cruise, and when I coast down it goes straight back to 1.1V for the duration of the coast.  What's weird is that I'm expecting the monitor to pulse the EGR and look for a MAP delta, but I'm not seeing that on my EGR position PID.  What's even weirder is that I can "feel" a light surge while coasting down that reminds me very much of a GM doing exactly that ... it's just not showing on the live data for this Honda.  I removed the EGR valve and fired up the engine to make sure that both of my ports are clear, and they are.  I power-probed the EGR coil, and the valve jerks all the way open.

I'm trying to be careful to not set any DTCs during my diagnosis, because I don't really want to start all my monitor runs over from scratch, but maybe that's not the worst idea anyway?!?!  I have another Honda EGR valve that I could install while viewing the bottom end of the original EGR valve while it's plugged in ... or is that probably barking up the wrong tree?

barrym95838
EO/EI/LA/BA144107
“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

scanner
barrym95838 wrote
Thanks, scanner.  I've been doing something similar, but not exactly the same.  

I'm letting it warm up at idle, then setting my dyno to 2.5 HP and running it up to 60 MPH for at least ten seconds before letting it coast down below 20 MPH with no brake.  I wait about a minute, then rinse and repeat several times.
I used to put a load on just about everything I ran on the dyno, and I've found that running the dyno unloaded in some cases will allow a stubborn monitor to complete.    Try running it unloaded, let the vehicle speed stabilize a bit more before you release the throttle.  

Speaking about not loading a dyno, I ran some Nissan cat monitors just by reving the engine up per their instructions.   Just sitting in the bay.  

I'm trying to be careful to not set any DTCs during my diagnosis, because I don't really want to start all my monitor runs over from scratch, but maybe that's not the worst idea anyway?!?!  I have another Honda EGR valve that I could install while viewing the bottom end of the original EGR valve while it's plugged in ... or is that probably barking up the wrong tree?
Does your scanner support bi-directionals for the EGR on the vehicle?   I suppose it's possible that the ECM is commanding the EGR Valve, but for some reason it's not responding.  You'd think if that's the case, it would set the P0401.  

Why make it simple, when it will work equally as well complicated.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

Karupt
In reply to this post by My Name is Nobody
 GReat just great , question is how do we explain THIS failure to your average customer ? We are going to need a video and a video room explaining the failure with a 15 minute class
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

barrym95838
Administrator
In reply to this post by scanner
It occurred to me that 2.5 HP might not be appropriate.  I'll try 0 HP and 5 HP and see if that has any effect.  Maybe I'll be able to see the different loads reflected in the steady-state EGR position ... I don't even know if 1.7V is the appropriate opening for running the monitor without comparing it to "known good" under the same conditions.

My go-to scan tool in this type of situation is still my old Matco Determinator.  I use it for diagnosis and I use my Matco MD1042 for quick-and-dirty checks (because of its speed).  The Determinator can exercise several items on this particular Honda, but EGR isn't one of them, unfortunately.  The shop owns a Maxisys that might be a bit more featureful ... maybe I'll try that too.

Thanks for your suggestions.

barrym95838
EO/EI/LA/BA144107
“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

My Name is Nobody
In reply to this post by Johnnybeme
looks like 2007 or newer for Diesel and 2009 or newer for Gas.

For Test-Only shops, you're not going to tell your customers to drive around for a few days if the monitors are not ready.

For Evap repair techs.  How are you going to get the monitors to be ready for the smog test?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

Best Answer I Can Give
 This is just like any government agency. Shut the door after the animals have gone.

 We should have NEVER, NEVER, Never been able to clear codes. FIX THE DAMN THING.  The light was on for a reason. Fix it right so the light goes off by itself.
 Life will give you rope. It will give you enough to make a ladder to pull yourself up, or an noose to hang yourself with.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

My Name is Nobody
In reply to this post by My Name is Nobody
BAR PDTCS presentation for tomorrow BAG meeting.

https://smogcheck.ca.gov/pdf/Permanent_DTCs.pdf
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

scanner
In reply to this post by My Name is Nobody
My Name is Nobody wrote
For Evap repair techs.  How are you going to get the monitors to be ready for the smog test?
I've don't have any problem fixing EVAP codes.   It will take 3 consecutive successfully run monitors to clear the permanent code.  

EDIT:

  It's just going to take a week or so for that permanent code to clear out.   I doubt we're going to see many of those failures on 2010-2012 vehicles.  

I just read this on this PDF.  

https://ford.oemdtc.com/GSB/G0000122.pdf

A Permanent DTC will be erased one of two ways

1) After three consecutive confirmed fault-free monitoring cycles. The MIL is extinguished and the Permanent DTC is cleared at the start of the fourth fault free monitoring cycle.

2) After one confirmed fault-free monitoring cycle following a scan tool “clear DTC” request.


One work around comes to mind.   I would think reflashing the PCM would clear everything out including permanent codes.  Then run the monitors.    I don't think anyone would do that, it would be easier to use an emulator if you're going to cheat.

I have no problem with CARB-BAR implementing the new fail criteria.   It's just gives us more opportunity to make money on repairs.    
Why make it simple, when it will work equally as well complicated.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

none
In reply to this post by StarTech
StarTech wrote
Cool. Expect your pass rate\star score to decline once implemented.
It shouldn't since it is based on similar vehicles.


This all personally sounds good to me though I don't understand all that I read. The charts are a little confusing to me.

I think that our smog program could eventually be a "KIOSK customer plug in" type of smog check on newer cars in the near future. I'm sure it is a very small percentage that would fail smog with all self tests complete and no pending faults or history codes. The other thing would be to test the fuel trim adjustment percentage. That would help identify broken PCV tubes and intake faults.
I've hit rock bottom but I brought a pick and a shovel and I'm ready to dig!
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

My Name is Nobody
In reply to this post by scanner
scanner wrote
EDIT:

  It's just going to take a week or so for that permanent code to clear out.   I doubt we're going to see many of those failures on 2010-2012 vehicles.  
Average 3.5% of OBD failure rate on 110K of 2010-2012 model year vehicles a month.  It's a significant numbers.
scanner wrote
I just read this on this PDF.  

https://ford.oemdtc.com/GSB/G0000122.pdf

A Permanent DTC will be erased one of two ways

1) After three consecutive confirmed fault-free monitoring cycles. The MIL is extinguished and the Permanent DTC is cleared at the start of the fourth fault free monitoring cycle.

2) After one confirmed fault-free monitoring cycle following a scan tool “clear DTC” request.
You're the man.  Great info!



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Permanent DTCS

Smogtech
In reply to this post by none
none wrote

I think that our smog program could eventually be a "KIOSK customer plug in" type of smog check on newer cars in the near future. I'm sure it is a very small percentage that would fail smog with all self tests complete and no pending faults or history codes. The other thing would be to test the fuel trim adjustment percentage. That would help identify broken PCV tubes and intake faults.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-26/california-mulls-following-china-with-combustion-engine-car-ban
12