Question for the TR people.

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Question for the TR people.

Best Answer I Can Give
 One of the "Required" Tools at one time was the BIG OLD scope. You know, one to the coil, one to #1, Raster, Parade, Stacked.

 How often do you still use it. Does the one you own even work? Is it still required?
 Life will give you rope. It will give you enough to make a ladder to pull yourself up, or an noose to hang yourself with.
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Re: Question for the TR people.

D Rochells 150861
Digital storage oscilloscope has been required instead for quite some time now.
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Re: Question for the TR people.

scanner
In reply to this post by Best Answer I Can Give
Best Answer I Can Give wrote
 How often do you still use it. Does the one you own even work? Is it still required?
I still have mine.  It's fully functional.  It's a Sun Sleuth One.  I don't remember the last time I used it.   Couple of years ago, maybe?  



I learned on a Marquette Ignition Scope.  Marquette was bought by Bear.  

I can pick out lean running cylinders, fouled spark plugs, bad ignition wires, bad coil wire, bad coils, shorted coils, points that need adjustment, worn points, bent distributor shafts.   Learning everything about the ignition waveform allowed me to transition to DSOs without a problem.  

Techs nowadays didn't have that reference.  (Do I sound like an old geezer?)   They have no reference as to how electronic wavy lines relate to it's mechanical counter parts.    I can see why BAR says most DSO and Graphing Multimeters are still in shrink wrap.  

Back in the day, I made a lot of money with ignition scopes.   I still make money with my DSO, but diagnostics are more skewed toward scanner diagnostics today.  

Cars and Trucks went 12K miles between tune ups.  Now they go 100K miles.  The ignition systems are more robust.  The need for a Big Box Analyzer is no more.  
Why make it simple, when it will work equally as well complicated.
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Re: Question for the TR people.

Kevin
In reply to this post by Best Answer I Can Give
Its funny you post this I was just at Tech-Help last weekend doing my 16 hour update course and the focus was on using a scope for in depth diagnostics. Additionally how technicians have gotten lazy with the basics and not really doing complete diagnostics and just a lot of hanging of known good parts
 What I call the Identifix shot gun parts fix.



On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 8:55 AM Best Answer I Can Give [via Stop The Star Program] <[hidden email]> wrote:
 One of the "Required" Tools at one time was the BIG OLD scope. You know, one to the coil, one to #1, Raster, Parade, Stacked.

 How often do you still use it. Does the one you own even work? Is it still required?
 Life will give you rope. It will give you enough to make a ladder to pull yourself up, or an noose to hang yourself with.



If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
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NAML
EO/EI/BA certifications ASE Master Certified Chrysler Master Certified Ford Certified Wyotech Graduate Sequoia Institute Graduate 20+ year experience
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Re: Question for the TR people.

Kevin
In reply to this post by Best Answer I Can Give
But yes a ignition scope is still required 

On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 10:24 AM Kevin Casillas <[hidden email]> wrote:
Its funny you post this I was just at Tech-Help last weekend doing my 16 hour update course and the focus was on using a scope for in depth diagnostics. Additionally how technicians have gotten lazy with the basics and not really doing complete diagnostics and just a lot of hanging of known good parts
 What I call the Identifix shot gun parts fix.



On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 8:55 AM Best Answer I Can Give [via Stop The Star Program] <[hidden email]> wrote:
 One of the "Required" Tools at one time was the BIG OLD scope. You know, one to the coil, one to #1, Raster, Parade, Stacked.

 How often do you still use it. Does the one you own even work? Is it still required?
 Life will give you rope. It will give you enough to make a ladder to pull yourself up, or an noose to hang yourself with.



If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://stop-the-star-program.3084.x6.nabble.com/Question-for-the-TR-people-tp5067540.html
To unsubscribe from Stop The Star Program, click here.
NAML
EO/EI/BA certifications ASE Master Certified Chrysler Master Certified Ford Certified Wyotech Graduate Sequoia Institute Graduate 20+ year experience
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Re: Question for the TR people.

Best Answer I Can Give
In reply to this post by scanner
 Damn Scanner, I FORGOT all the stuff you could read by just looking at a pattern.
Hell you could even tell if the Carb was lean or rich one side or another.

 So by the looks of it you don't need the old school scanner but you do need a wave form reader, AKA DSO.
 Life will give you rope. It will give you enough to make a ladder to pull yourself up, or an noose to hang yourself with.
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Re: Question for the TR people.

Lose weight
The pocket size  Aes Uscope should be enough no?
Make America Healthy Again, Stop overeating phatties!
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Re: Question for the TR people.

Best Answer I Can Give
Ok. so how many of you share a online, say Mitchell on demand. One of the help fix it sites that you must have.
 Life will give you rope. It will give you enough to make a ladder to pull yourself up, or an noose to hang yourself with.
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Re: Question for the TR people.

barrym95838
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Best Answer I Can Give
I use my Vantage Pro at least a couple of times a week, but more for sensor sweeps and profiles than secondary ignition issues.  It qualifies under the T&R rules, but I had to show that I had at least a couple of different secondary adapters for it.



When we got our Gold Shield, I had to demonstrate that I could set up my DSO and graph an O2 sensor wave form.

My boss pays monthly for AllData and Direct Hit.  He must think that they're carrying their weight, or he would have canceled them by now.

barrym95838
EO/EI/LA/BA144107
“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
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Re: Question for the TR people.

none
I had ALLDATA when I was TEST ONLY because it was worth it to me to find canister location and timing check procedures.
I've hit rock bottom but I brought a pick and a shovel and I'm ready to dig!
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Re: Question for the TR people.

none
In reply to this post by scanner
scanner wrote
...bent distributor shafts...
I remeber my teacher showing a raster pattern and saying how you would identify a bent distributor shaft but... I never did find one.
I've hit rock bottom but I brought a pick and a shovel and I'm ready to dig!
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Re: Question for the TR people.

D Rochells 150861
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Re: Question for the TR people.

scanner
In reply to this post by Lose weight
Lose weight wrote
The pocket size  Aes Uscope should be enough no?
At this point in time, no.  

https://californiaarc.org/Forum/aft/298

My avatar is from a uScope.  
Why make it simple, when it will work equally as well complicated.
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Re: Question for the TR people.

Kevin
Yes in the past bent distributor shafts, bad braker plates,
The vantage and solus have good scopes.

My new AES wave stuff is the best, additionally PICO makes some great test equipment

And a great resource for test data is the old  for OBD1
MT 2400, MT 2500 snap on
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Re: Question for the TR people.

scanner
In reply to this post by barrym95838
barrym95838 wrote
I use my Vantage Pro at least a couple of times a week, but more for sensor sweeps and profiles than secondary ignition issues.  
Me too!  

It qualifies under the T&R rules, but I had to show that I had at least a couple of different secondary adapters for it.
I got a Sleuth One, but the Vantage Pro can do everything I (and BAR) want except cylinder canceling.

When we got our Gold Shield, I had to demonstrate that I could set up my DSO and graph an O2 sensor wave form.
The PR1 that checked my Gold Shield station initially wanted a single O2 sensor waveform on a Toyota, and I said "Really?"   He gave me the "Oh, you don't know how to do that?" look.    I got my Heritage Vantage out, flipped the cover off the diagnostic port, and he stopped me, and said "That's okay, it's looks like you know how to use a scope"  Whuut?  He was always very annoying till he retired.  

I hear I'll have to do the same thing when I initialize my GEN3 machine to turn it on.  A PR1 will have to inspect my station as if I just opened my T&R.  
Why make it simple, when it will work equally as well complicated.
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Re: Question for the TR people.

scanner
In reply to this post by none
none wrote
scanner wrote
...bent distributor shafts...
I remeber my teacher showing a raster pattern and saying how you would identify a bent distributor shaft but... I never did find one.
Of course not, you worked on Toyotas.  

Here's an ignition waveform I found on line, but it's not a bent shaft, but it appears to have mechanical problems.   You can see one lobe on the cam is way off for some reason.   You can see the voltage fluctuation on some as the coil charges.   Actually, someone must have drawn that picture and made up the problems.  



it came out of this PDF.

at_ci_ch_70.pdf
Why make it simple, when it will work equally as well complicated.
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Re: Question for the TR people.

scanner
In reply to this post by Kevin
Kevin wrote
My new AES wave stuff is the best, additionally PICO makes some great test equipment
AES is the best.  

https://www.facebook.com/groups/aeswavetechfeed
Why make it simple, when it will work equally as well complicated.
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Re: Question for the TR people.

none
In reply to this post by scanner
Actually I did far more diagnosis on European cars. There just isn't much of a call for a guy who knows anything about CIS injection or glow plug circuits and vacuum door locks on old Mercedes.

The pattern you showed looks more like something bouncing because it isn't even enough. On an 8cyl. you would expect to have an equal number of cylinders with less dwell than with more.

How do you bend a distributor shaft anyway?  I've pressed my fair share of drive gears off and on and never put that much force on anything. I usually heat the gear to reinstall though.
I've hit rock bottom but I brought a pick and a shovel and I'm ready to dig!
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Re: Question for the TR people.

scanner
none wrote
The pattern you showed looks more like something bouncing because it isn't even enough. On an 8cyl. you would expect to have an equal number of cylinders with less dwell than with more.
I think someone just drew the picture.   A lot of stuff going on that waveform, and the guy just went nuts with the paint program.    


How do you bend a distributor shaft anyway?  I've pressed my fair share of drive gears off and on and never put that much force on anything. I usually heat the gear to reinstall though.
I think bending the shaft is a misnomer, but easy to remember.   What is probably happening is that the bushing is getting oblong causing the shaft to wobble in the housing causing the dwell time to vary.    If dwell time is varying a whole bunch, something is worn or broken, and changing the distributor will fix the waveform.  

I've pressed my share of distributor gears too.  Some to change the stator on some Fords.  I've removed shafts from earlier GMs to free up the mechanical advance units.    Later model GMs that set P1345 Cam Crank Relation Codes might get their distributor gear rotated 180 degrees.  The distributors have 13 teeth, and if you don't put it in the proper orientation the cam crank relationship will be off.   I've never used heat to reinstall, but I can see that helping.  
Why make it simple, when it will work equally as well complicated.
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Re: Question for the TR people.

barrym95838
Administrator
scanner wrote
... I've pressed my share of distributor gears too.  Some to change the stator on some Fords.  I've removed shafts from earlier GMs to free up the mechanical advance units.    Later model GMs that set P1345 Cam Crank Relation Codes might get their distributor gear rotated 180 degrees.  The distributors have 13 teeth, and if you don't put it in the proper orientation the cam crank relationship will be off ...
BTDT

barrym95838
EO/EI/LA/BA144107
“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
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